Media, Fanbases & You: General Nerdy Disscussion/Debate Thread.



  • I've started threads like this before, but I wanted to do one more all encompassing/streamlined. Basically this is a thread to talk about how you got interested in the various pieces of media you enjoy, your overall views/reasons/etc, your interactions with fanbases both good and bad, and what being of fan of (insert thing here) means to you.

    So just kind of a general neediness discussion thread.

    So get nerdy my friends. :p



  • @Soundmonkey44:

    Which that begs the question, everyone always talks about elitists, but at the same time, isn't being an apologist just as destructive in the end….

    With apologist; how do you mean?

    Is it like the opposite end of the spectrum of elitist? Because an elitist is simply a person who thinks the material they like is the best, regardless of the fact that anime is a subjective art and/or the fact that they ignore or don't follow any of the metrics or rules they set themselves. Elitists are usually burdened with heavy bias, which is obvious and transparent to everyone else but themselves.



  • @Soundmonkey44:

    I've started threads like this before, but I wanted to do one more all encompassing/streamlined. Basically this is a thread to talk about how you got interested in the various pieces of media you enjoy, your overall views/reasons/etc, your interactions with fanbases both good and bad, and what being of fan of (insert thing here) means to you.

    So just kind of a general neediness discussion thread.

    So get nerdy my friends. :p

    I started watching anime random on Toonami one night a few years back, I ended up staying up that entire night/morning watching Toonami. The shows that I remember were on were Code Geass, FLCL/FoolyCooly, Eureka 7, and Cowboy Bebop.
    I really got into anime big time earlier this year (maybe even a little overboard) and have been watching at least a show a week.
    I have a Subscription through Crunchyroll and Funimation and occasionally buy anime on dvd that I think I would enjoy watching.
    I don't really know why I like anime (theres not many people in the small town that I live in that are into anime). I don't really have any specific Genre of anime that I like, I will basically try watching anything and if I dont like the first 2-4 episodes ill stop watching it.
    So far I've had great experiences with almost everyone that I have talked to that watches anime.

    I think this is what this thread is supposed to be about…



  • @neon: Yeah An apologist is pretty much the opposite of an elitist. It's ok for [insert thing here] to do X/Y cause it's [insert reason/self justification here]

    @sandman: well it's about general media more so then just anime, but decent start I guess.



  • @Soundmonkey44:

    @neon: Yeah An apologist is pretty much the opposite of an elitist. It's ok for [insert thing here] to do X/Y cause it's [insert reason/self justification here]

    Meh, what you mention elitists do all the time, most people do, you, me, everyone. I do it with fan service when I look at context, execution and of course when and where; the appropriate time on the appropriate anime.

    Nah, I think an apologist is someone who blindly accepts any piece of media without any sort of scrutiny, analogy or criticism while an elitist is that pretentious want to be intellectual who acts like nothing is good enough, fails to follow their own rules and metrics, dismisses that anime is subjective, ignores context; all for the sake of satisfying their personal bias or to crap on shows that have any level of popularity.

    They often criticize something negatively with superficial problems or even make some up and rationalize them. I see this most often when people attempt to convey Puella Magi Madoka Magica as a "bad" anime, as a matter of fact, there is one review that does that; and it's a horrible review.



  • While I'm not entirely sure this was the original intent of this thread, I'm going to assume by its title that it encompasses a wide variety of debatable topics spanning fandoms.

    That being said, I think there are a few misconceptions regarding the terms and labels that are being thrown about.

    While I'm sure we've all heard the term elitist tossed about, it's gone through a lot of refinements over the years. Back in my day, there were simply “fans” “Purists” and “Elitists.” And, while I'm sure that there are still those within any given fan-base that still qualify, I think the definitions need to be honed down to a better edge.

    When I started out in anime, I was an “enthusiast.” It didn't matter what it was about, what sort of dub it had, which company distributed… none of that mattered; I was in love with anime, and all I wanted was to gorge myself stupid on it 24/7. I was as noobish as noobs could get. I didn't know voice actors; didn't know what was supposed to be good, or better, or excellent; to me it was all top tier stuff. My exposure was so limited that someone could have handed me “Kimba the White Lion” and I would have probably loved it.

    Then I entered the phase where most anime fans are today: “Pluralist”—not “Apologists."

    Now when I say, “pluralist” I'm not talking about religion or social political diversification. I'm talking about the “Anime Is For Everyone” mentality. That whole, “Dubs are good! Support the American Dub Machine! Spread the Gospel of Anime! More! We need More Fans!”

    I don't really think that pluralist fans really have a side. No subs or dubs debate with them. In fact, I'm pretty sure that if they are all for anime, and anime for all, then they are all pretty chill about sides in general, or are too fearful to voice an opinion. I'm not sure which.

    “Elitists” though, come in all forms, and in all flavors. In my day I spent most of my time battling Sub-Elitists, and arguing idiotic points that would never go any further than the thread title of, “Fan Subs Are Bad! And You Should Feel Bad For Supporting Them!”

    Or my favorite, “I was a fan before you were, anime is more sacred to me, because I worked harder to get it. You're argument is invalid.” The attitude that just because some fans saw Cowboy Bebop on CN and got hooked was a cardinal sin. Because like the elitists, they should have been in the early anime underground and watched bootlegged anime on VHS with piss-poor subtitles, because THAT was how it was supposed to be done. All this getting anime handed to them from a “COMPANY” was pure and utter bull**it!

    Not to mention that said COMPANY was only interested in feeding the ignorant lesser fans shonen garbage, because like all elitists know… nothing good has ever come from shonen. Only boobs and panties, and thus the fans of the day will never know how great it is to watch something with brains, and intelligence.

    Eventually, these elitists become so isolated with their ten or so “godly” anime that they either disappear into the void, or become employed by ANN(that's a joke by the way).

    Then there are fans like myself, or where I am now in the fandom. Fans that just want Japanese anime to remain as Japanese as possible. I'm not talking about honorifics or even localization. I'm talking the purest form of the art as possible with as few changes as possible. And thus you have the “purist.”

    I'm not interested in trying to decide which is better, shonen or shojo. I'll watch ecchi anime as much as I want. I have no aversion to panties, or boobs; I don't vomit at the sight of wincest, or moe. I just don't care. I watch what interests me, and 90% of the time, I watch it either subbed, or raw. I understand enough Japanese that I don't really need subs. I also couldn't care any less if there is a deep meaning to anime, or if there isn't. It's either entertaining, or it's not. Period. Shigurui made me sick to my stomach; Psycho Pass doesn't even make me flinch.

    To some, I might would be considered an elitist. But that would only be true, if I considered my personal preferences to be absolute. If I assumed that just because I can do what other anime fans can't, and that by that virtue I am superior in any way, would make me an elitist. I could use my intellect to argue as much as I want, writing “apology” after “apology” going into detail why my thoughts and opinions are meritorious, or for that matter even worthy of being heard; and when it is all said and done, I'd just be a stuck-up fan that owns a label.

    I've been in the anime fandom a long time. I'm almost fourty years old. I have a huge collection of anime, and I've seen anime from every era and decade and every genre. But you know what? That doesn't impress anyone. When it is all said and done, we are all subjected to our own biases, because: subjectivity. It is impossible to view anime objectively. Because try as we might, we can only view something and understand it based on our own personal experiences and knowledge, and thus, it is subjected to our own personal bias. We would have to be able to be everywhere, see everything, know everything, and understand all concepts of a thing, to observe it in true objectivity. And thus… sadly, all arguments are invalid, and all arguments are nothing more that personal opinion.



  • @Davidism:

    While I'm not entirely sure this was the original intent of this thread, I'm going to assume by its title that it encompasses a wide variety of debatable topics spanning fandoms.

    Pretty much; so we can discuss this; for the most part I do agree with your post, however there is one portion I wholeheartedly agree with, and this is where a bulk of my post will go.

    @Davidism:

    When it is all said and done, we are all subjected to our own biases, because: subjectivity. It is impossible to view anime objectively. Because try as we might, we can only view something and understand it based on our own personal experiences and knowledge, and thus, it is subjected to our own personal bias.

    Bias - prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair.

    Now, if we apply this definition to anime, I can say with confidence I am not inhibited by such a burden, and based on this:

    @Davidism:

    I'm not interested in trying to decide which is better, shonen or shojo. I'll watch ecchi anime as much as I want. I have no aversion to panties, or boobs; I don't vomit at the sight of wincest, or moe. I just don't care. I watch what interests me, and 90% of the time, I watch it either subbed, or raw. I understand enough Japanese that I don't really need subs. I also couldn't care any less if there is a deep meaning to anime, or if there isn't. It's either entertaining, or it's not. Period.

    I don’t think you have a bias with anime either.

    The simple fact that when I go to watch an anime, I go in with the attitude of; “Let’s see what this show will be like.” Bias terminated. I agree that it is impossible to be 100% objective and impartial to a subjective art/entertainment medium like anime, however; it is not bias that causes it; it’s a person’s individual personality, which is very different from bias. This is a good thing. This is how we get a variety of opinions and interpretations; this is why art is worth discussing; to see what others get from it and to brainstorm ideas, or share favorite scenes. It is consistent with the idea that anime, like any art form, is subjective.

    As you say, an individual’s personality is based on their experiences and knowledge and therefore; their opinions as well; but after they have viewed a sufficient amount of a given series without bias to formulate a fair opinion. Bias is when someone allows their aversion to a certain element, style, studio, time period, or even how popular it is to dictate their opinion without having even seen a single frame of an anime making it a premature opinion. In some cases, people still watch such shows with their bias at the forefront of their perspective blinding them to any merits that exist they’d otherwise notice in any other series.

    In other words, I’ve seen critics and people who are great at expressing their opinions in great depth and detail following a strict metric and structure they abide by for grading an anime in the most objective manner they can think of; not 100% objective mind you, I’ve already said this is impossible. Unfortunately, when a given series has an element a person or critic has an issue with, at the drop of a hat; they abandon their metric and structure and opt for cherry picking problems or coming up with superfluous reasoning as to rationalize their preconceived opinion which is a result of their bias. (I don’t do that, and I think it’s fair to say that you don’t either.)

    I see this often with elitists; you get those people who hold Neon Genesis up as the Holy Grail of anime and nothing will ever be as good; ever, or people who claim all the good stuff stopped being made after 1999, or if the masses like something for any reason (reverse bandwagon effect), or if it has fan service, or some other disliked element or any other petty reason; it sucks. You also mentioned people who speak of getting into anime a long time ago in order to rationalize the superiority of their opinion; I hate that, I really do; true signs of an elitist.

    Don’t get me wrong, it’s fine to have an aversion or indifference to certain elements or subgenres; some have it towards harem shows and fan service, I for one I’m not big on mech anime. However; I will still give something a fair try and as a result, I very much enjoyed Neon Genesis, Evangelion Movies, GunBuster and Gargantia which feature or contain mech in their stories.

    This leads us to the fact that it is possible for an individual to commend something even if it has an element in it they dislike; they may simply criticize that element. A perfect example is High School of the Dead; I’ve seen a few critics praise it who are notorious for their hatred of ecchi, commending the action, character designs and premise, but disliking the fan service in it. This is the same as when I lent my Queen’s Blade to a guy at work, and he praised the characterization and story, admitted he does like it, but still condemned the fan service. The fact is, these people are making their aversions clear, but they’re admitting these shows are actually good and that they like them for the most part.

    As far as watching “what interests you” I’m willing to bet you’re one of these guys, since you have mentioned you have no aversions to anything, who will give anything a fair try if recommended, or you hear about it because of advertising or because people are talking about it, or you see something with interesting artwork or a cool trailer; I’ll admit, I do the same thing, but it’s always going in with the mentality of; “Let’s see what this show is like.”

    Understand though, there’s a difference between knowing, or having a good idea what elements will be on a given anime from the promo art, the studio, trailers and word of mouth; and bias. Knowing what elements an anime has like fan service, or the subgenre like harem or psychological thriller, doesn’t confirm whether it’s “good” or not, or, for a better choice of words; if you will like or dislike it. Ultimately, it’s up to you to make the choice to try that series out, and that’s mostly your personality such as finding the idea interesting, or someone you know recommended it or everyone is talking about it and you want to see what all the fuss is about; but it’s not bias.



  • @Davidism:

    Eventually, these elitists become so isolated with their ten or so “godly” anime that they either disappear into the void, or become employed by ANN(that's a joke by the way).

    That is pretty funny; I laughed pretty good at that joke.

    @Davidism:

    But that would only be true, if I considered my personal preferences to be absolute.

    This is, in more or less word the essence of what I’ve been saying; someone who believes their opinion to be supreme and above everyone else’s, however; I always find such people who do this are slaves to their own biases.

    @Davidism:

    I could use my intellect to argue as much as I want, writing “apology” after “apology” going into detail why my thoughts and opinions are meritorious, or for that matter even worthy of being heard; and when it is all said and done, I'd just be a stuck-up fan that owns a label.

    Expressing an opinion and explaining why a person feels the way they do about a series doesn’t make them “stuck-up” or make their opinions any more “meritorious.” Sometimes, people just like to share their thoughts and opinions and have some discourse about some of the shows they enjoy, or disliked.

    For me, I don’t go into these shows with the ambition to find a “deeper meaning,” I usually just notice this stuff as I watch; as I mentioned earlier I go in with an attitude of; "Let's see what this is like." . Ultimately, when I start to look at anime from a critical and analytical level, a majority of the time it’s to answer a simple question; why did I like/dislike that anime as much as I did? From there it leads to looking that the characters, their interactions, the story, execution and etcetera and I usually find the reason why I arrived at the opinion I did. So when I do a write up; it’s me wanting to share my thoughts, opinions and analogies and how I got there.

    Now, I want to make something abundantly clear; I in no way believe that how I enjoy anime, is “the best” way, nor do I label someone’s taste crap because they may like anime I don’t, nor do I think the anime I like is the be all and end all. For example; Davidism, you like Sword Art Online, me, I’m pretty indifferent to it; I gave it a fair try, I explained why it didn’t do it for me, but neither of our opinions supersedes each other’s.

    @Davidism:

    I've been in the anime fandom a long time. I'm almost fourty years old. I have a huge collection of anime, and I've seen anime from every era and decade and every genre. But you know what? That doesn't impress anyone.

    To be honest, I’m practically in the same boat as you, I’m getting up there in my age and questioning if I might be getting too old for posting on forums like this. I’ve seen anime from every era, decade and genre just like you, and learned there are always stuff I will like, and some; not so much. I’m more than aware such trivial sentiments don’t impress anyone.

    @Davidism:

    And thus… sadly, all arguments are invalid, and all arguments are nothing more that personal opinion.

    I wrote something like that a few months ago when I was having the exact same discussion in another thread about bias. I talked about, regardless of how much I, as an individual can like a series and quantify how “good” it is with concrete examples from that series it still just an opinion. I believe it was something to the effect of me saying that I think Fate/ Zero is a superior anime to Ikkitousen; now I still like Ikkitousen, I think it’s very good, but, I contend that Fate/Zero is better.

    Therefore I could write an essay on why Fate/Zero is the superior anime using examples from the series to illustrate what Fate/Zero did better as a story than Ikkitousen from the perspective of a critic being as “objective” as I can be and at the end of the day; it’s all moot; it’s still only my personal opinion; which mind you was not influenced by bias considering that I enjoy both series. I simply enjoy Fate/Zero more and that’s after having completed both shows giving each a fair try.

    I will address the opening post on a later date, it seems like something fun to share.



  • If I wasn't sure David was already married if tell you two ta get a room. XD

    But nice to know it's so easy ta get a job at ANN! XD


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